September 4...Jefferson and Schooling in the U.S.
Jefferson was very interested in creating a meritocracy (leaders chosen for their talent, virtue, ability, etc.). Discuss the idea of meritocracy, either in Jeffersons timer how it seems to play out today. Some possible questions: Do we live in a meritocracy? Did Jefferson's ideas have potential to move us toward a meritocracy? What problems are there with the idea of meritocracy (in his time and/or ours)?
I don’t believe we live in a meritocracy. This is because sometimes a person who isn’t as qualified will get a job and a person who is won’t. There are some obstacles to the idea of leaders being chosen based on their aptitude and ability. Nepotism and inheritance show that people can advance without much talent or merit. Trump was born into a wealthy family and was given a “small loan of a million dollars” which undoubtedly aided in his ability to gain power and influence. Individuals born into affluent and/or powerful families often can outcompete others due to their resources and status. This sometimes hinders the ability of more talented and able prospects being able to succeed on the same level.
ReplyDeleteJefferson proposed an education system with three levels. The first level was free to any free man or woman. The second was for free men, and they had to pay tuition. The third was for the few men with the “ability” to complete such education. I’m not so sure that this would create the meritocracy that Jefferson wanted. In the reading, it stated that Jefferson believe that anyone could improve upon themselves with schooling; however, he also stated that only those who have gone through all three levels of education would be the legislators, governors, or jurists. If he wants to choose people based on their ability or talent, wouldn’t he have created a system that fostered that talent throughout all levels of schooling? To me, it doesn’t seem like leaders would be chosen because they are the most able, but because they have the most money to make it through all three levels of education. Jefferson’s ideas would not have moved us towards a meritocracy. They would have lead more to become educated, but not educated equally. I don’t believe we live in a meritocracy today. There are so many talented, good people that just never get to be leaders. So many factors— socioeconomic status, skin color, and sexuality— play into the roles we have in life. Not everyone is born into a family with infinite resources. Not everyone is born with the same privileges. Although I am sure some work hard for their positions in life, I’m not sure this is true for the majority.
ReplyDeleteIn today's time I do not think we live in a meritocracy. Many people often times do have the qualifications, skills, and.or education to hold a position of power. However, does not get the chance to because the odds are sometimes slim. There is an unequal playing field which gives those who do have the ability to do well have the disadvantage. This can be for numerous of reasons such as race, religion, sexuality, economic status, etc. Those who have the connections and funds are able to move to higher positions even though they may be unqualified too. If we lived in a society where meritocracy existed there would be plenty of people in careers where they are able to succeed not only in individuality, but also helping those around them flourish.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe we live in a meritocracy. I think that in theory, its a great idea for everyone who is qualified, to get the respective job they deserve. However in practice, it's not common. Sometimes it can be based on connections solely. In Jefferson's time, the author stated it as a "great paradox in American life". He would say that all men are created equal. However if an unqualified white man and a qualified black man applied to the same job, the white man would get the job due to "the exploitation of men and woman on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, etc". This too is evident in our times. However I see it more as the exploitation of social standing. I believe that Jefferson's ideology was in the right place. That everyone deserves freedom and happiness. However we can expand that (as we did) to include everyone. I want to say that the problem with meritocracy today is that we do not just hire people or elect people based on their talent and ability. We tend to want someone with experience, even if they have no talent. For example we're more likely to elect incumbents into office rather than someone running for the first time.
ReplyDeleteIn the reading, equality and freedom are two of the most prominent topics due to the fact that Jefferson believed that public education could provide individuals with the necessary skills to be model citizens in a democracy. Although he spoke of equal rights for everybody, it is important to take into account other factors occurring during this time that could've prevented these ideologies to be fully executed. For instance, during his time women and minorities were not given the same rights and privileges to education as men. In fact, the reading makes a comparison to ancient Athens, Greece which was comprised of a very elitist and male society. Therefore, it is hard to determine whether or not Jefferson was successful in creating a meritocracy. In order for this system or ideology to successfully function, all people must be given equal rights and access to education in order for citizens to prepare themselves using the necessary resources and tools they need to be successful.
ReplyDeleteI also do not think that we live in a meritocracy. Thomas Jefferson would have argued that wealth and power in society would derive from education (merit) and achievement. I would argue that in modern days, there are many people who achieve positions that do not have the qualifications for a specific job. I think the root of meritocracy from Jefferson's point of view may have been equal access for education and the reform of the system at the time. However, this only applies to white men and limited women to a small amount of education. Jefferson's model for education at the lower levels is designed for students to learn only what they will need in life rather than critical thinking. Only white men could achieve higher education or receive the merit and qualifications necessary to be in power. Although in theory having a meritocracy would be beneficial for society because members are qualified to make informed decisions, it can exclude different populations based on access to resources and education.
ReplyDeleteKate Sulek^^^
DeleteLindsey: I don't believe that we currently live in a meritocracy because of the importance we put on things of imaginary value, like grades. I think Jefferson's ideas have potential to move us towards a meritocracy, but the stark divisions of society that his educational system ensures will cause regression instead of progression. Additionally, I believe in that if we are to become more meritocratic then we will need to slowly progress towards abandoning grades as a means to measure a child's educational success. I think traditional learning, as stated in Jefferson's educational plan, only works for a small minority of students and excludes the many students who learn in different ways from high educational achievement. Furthermore, I do agree with Jefferson that education for all is a necessary component in a democratic society. Moreover, I wholly agree with Jefferson's views on self-education and the significance of continuing to learning after completing formal schooling. I don't believe that anyone is ever done learning and having an attitude that there is always some other knowledge that can be attained will lead to a brighter future in society as a whole.
ReplyDeleteI think the world we live in today is not based on a meritocratic ideology. Although there are many people in the workforce that are more than qualified to do their job, does not mean they chose to do that work because they have a true passion for it. More so now than ever, people see work as a means of survival. Working in order to provide for themselves or for a family, and much less so because they are the most eligible to be working in that field. While having raw talent is a huge advantage, I believe that you can excel in your job with hard work and dedication. Jefferson’s ideas on “equality” and “freedom” and “human rights” could have led us to live in a more meritocratic way, but he also exploited men and women on the basis of race, gender, and social class, which prevented a meritocracy from occurring due to the fact that he didn’t give everyone a fair and equal chance to become leaders in society. This is still an issue that is prevalent today, unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteMary Kate Harrison – The idea of meritocracy, or in Thomas Jefferson’s time what was considered natural aristocracy, was the belief system that revolved around leaders being chosen for their virtue and talent. Jefferson’s educational proposals revolved around him adhering to the principles of classic liberalism and faculty psychology. Jefferson believed that “man was destined for society” and that formal education was the vehicle for the pursuit of happiness. Intellectual freedom for the individual through an educational system that combined lifelong knowledge with rigorous courses to exercise the brain, he believed would provide common citizens with their own defined version of moral truth. His educational structure had four tiers including elementary schools, grammar schools, the university and lifelong learning. This system would seemingly produce the best and brightest leaders of their time, because the selection process that dictated an individual advancing was based on academic success and virtue. To Jefferson, this seemed to be a flawless system to creating a society governed by a meritocracy. If America then or now strictly consisted of white males, sure this system could have been triumphant. However, that has never been the case. Jefferson did not plan to have young girls move past the elementary phase of his plan and even though his words in the Declaration of Independence state “all men are created equal” African Americans and Native Americans were not included in this plan at all. By excluding these demographics, Jefferson was immediately eliminating a large number of Americans that could have the potential to be great leaders based on their virtue and talent. Racism and sexism during the Jeffersonian era was far more normalized than it is today, but I believe they are still underlying influences in the aristocracy we live in now. The United States has come a long way in terms of oppression, however I believe that a lot of leadership positions are still ruled by class and familial background as opposed to qualifications. I think that meritocracy holds a lot of value and should be a goal for our society. Having said this, until we can correct the inconsistencies in things like funding for public education in areas of varying socioeconomic backgrounds, I do not think it is possible. The opportunity to display your strengths should be accessible to all members of society, and then we will have a true meritocracy.
ReplyDeleteIn the reading, I believe that Jefferson was in favor of a meritocratic society and although this may have worked in his mind, I do not think it would work in today's society; at least not right now. I would say that we currently do not live in a meritocratic environment. There are some people that have skipped grades, went to college, and excelled academically, but have a job that is considered 'lower' than maybe someone who never went to college and went straight to work after high school. I do believe that Jefferson may have wanted us to slowly inch our way to a meritocracy so that our education system can be equal to all. This would mean he would have to take away grades and traditional teaching styles. I also agree with the idea of self-teaching after finishing the traditional schooling years. Jefferson believes that a meritocracy equals freedom and equality, which in some cases may be true, but I believe that it would backfire because of the structure changes.
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ReplyDeleteI agree with the others, I do not believe we live in a meritocracy. There are so many instances where someone that is not as qualified for a job but get it above above someone that is actually qualified. Jefferson believed that people would obtain their wealth and power from hard work and an education, but that is not the case in some situations. There are so many people with well paying jobs that do not have the qualifications. I agree with the others that said that getting a job has a lot to do with race, religion, sexuality, etc and very little to do with actual qualifications. I do think that Jefferson’s heart was in the right place. He wanted everything to be equal and fair and for everyone to be happy, but that's not how things work.
Jefferson certainly emphasized a meritocratic society in his time. He made this idea possible with three different levels of schooling; the first, being elementary school where girls and boys were provided with 3 free years of education. He saw this as an opportunity and a "screen to identify future leaders from among the masses...". Girls were not to go passed elementary schooling into secondary education. This idea of screening individuals as potential leaders I believe sets up a premise for meritocracy. This already is basing the "system" off of finding the best leaders and the best fit for being in charge of local governments or even more, based on their abilities academically. Second, he proposed grammar schools, sort of a "college prep". And lastly, University education where individuals would go on to learn more about government, political freedom, economics, virtue, morals, and order, among other things. In Jefferson's time period, I think he was set up to become a meritocratic society because of the emphasis on finding good leaders. However, I don't think A.) that we live in a meritocratic society today or B.) it would ever work in today's world. Like my other classmates have mentioned above, there are MANY people in today's world who go on to receive (and pay for) higher education, college, master's and doctorate degrees, etc. However, there are certainly individuals who complete their schooling and have trouble finding a job in their field, or have to work to make ends meet, not based off of what they're "good" at. In many instances as well, folks don't have the opportunity for higher education. It is an unfair playing field because education costs money and not everyone has the financial means to do so. In turn, people again get jobs just so they can provide and make ends meet, not necessarily because of their talents, ability, etc. This goes back to my claim that today's world would never be fit for meritocracy. It worked in Jefferson's time because the social environment and setup was different. It would have worked in the society where a white male was favored above all, but not now. Racism and sexism were rampant but more normal and accepted in Jefferson's time. But now, these things are obviously looked down on and condemned. However, that doesn't mean that people still don't partake in racism or sexism, unfortunately. There are still many corrupt areas in society where positions are filled based solely upon "who you know", connections you have, family, class, and even race in some cases, whether it is said explicitly or not. So, I think that TRUE meritocracy, not Jefferson's version, could potentially be nice, if everyone was given equal opportunity, positions based on their talents and abilities where they excelled, and the chance to show your strengths and strong suits. And where everyone, no matter race/gender/etc. was given the chance at equal opportunity for higher education. However, in today's world that just doesn't work. The world cannot operate on people doing jobs based on their talents or strengths all the time, because if so, it would be impossible for everything to flow functionally and for people to provide correctly. It would also be next to impossible to provide everyone in the world with free education to the higher level, unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe we live in a meritocratic environment. Lots of people are not working their "dream jobs" but are working to survive. But I do think that Jefferson has some ideas to move us forward into a meritocratic society. That would mean grades would have no meaning, and traditional teaching styles would go away. A society where meritocracy existed would mean there would be plenty of people in careers where they are able to succeed not only in individuality, but also helping those around them flourish. A lot of leadership positions are still ruled by class and familial background. I think that meritocracy should be a goal for our society.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that we live in a meritocracy. People who are less qualified for a job may be picked over someone who would. For instance our current president, was born into a rich family and was never really involved in politics but was picked to be in charge of the country. Getting a job nowadays really depends on connections and who you know rather than having the skills necessary for the job. Jefferson's ideas of meritocracy are in the right place but when he talks about the three levels of education, girls are really only at the first level. It still puts white men at the chance for a higher and better education which in turns leads to them getting a better job. I feel like it would be hard to move toward a meritocracy now because many people who move up in jobs may be chosen by their race, economic status, and gender. Some people may not be given a fair chance or no chance at all.
ReplyDeleteI also do not believe we live in meritocracy because even some of the hardest working people may not end up with the highest status due to their economic status, race, sexuality, or religion. In many cases it seems like those who are born into wealth end up being the most influential. Jefferson’s idea would have moved us closer to having more education but it wouldn’t be as easy to attain as the white males. Meritocracy comes with disadvantages though because “merit” can often be determined by education and higher education is unaffordable to many.
ReplyDeleteI feel like some might like to think that we sort of live in meritocracy, the practice of which leaders are chosen because they are the most fit to “rule” or have power. But ideally, we live in a country in where we would like to choose someone that share our same beliefs, but for at least half the people in the country, the person we want to “rule” never really gets to. Like Keiana wrote, we see all the time someone who isn’t qualified will get the job while someone who is won’t. I feel like one of the biggest problem with meritocracy we have now, and I am sure it definitely would’ve been a problem in Jefferson’s time, would be how the only ones who might succeed in a meritocracy would be influential men. When Hillary Clinton was running for presidency against Former President Barrack Obama, far too many people said she was not right because she was simply a women.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with meritocracy because it holds people back from what their abilities are and people go to school and get an education to get their "dream jobs". Under meritocracy, wealth and advantage are merit’s rightful compensation, not the fortuitous windfall of external events. And I also feel like it's not as fair and it should work its way up to be come a fair meritocracy.
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Some people may believe we live in a meritocracy but we don't. People don't always get "chosen" based off of talent, effort, and achievement. I believe wealth or social class plays a big part whether people realize it or not. It would be pretty cool if our society could be structured that way but it just isn't possible. Our society heavily depends on connections and who knows who that this would never work. Jefferson's ideas would of really changed our education system, grades would no longer be necessary. Many people would shine with this system but others would fail. Imagining a world where it doesn't matter how wealthy you are, your gender, or your race and that everyone truly had a fair shot. It's a great idea and awesome in theory I just don't see it ever working in our massive society.
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ReplyDeleteJefferson may have been in favor of a meritocratic society, but I disagree. We see it everyday that someone who is not as qualified for a position is chosen over someone that might even be overqualified for it. Some people will make it much farther than those who are just as qualified because they have more resources and a higher economic status. It is also unfair to people with disabilities, saying that they aren’t as important in society because they have different abilities than someone that is in a general education classroom. Someone with dyslexia would be treated as if their abilities and educational obstacles are not as important as someone without dyslexia. That person might work way harder than someone without a learning disability, but will not be thought to be as successful in society.
Meritocracy in essence is the most practical way to choose leaders, because the leader would be the most qualified for the job. Rather than in an aristocracy where the only qualification for leadership is the right last name. Today education is prized more than ever, a simple bachelors degree sometimes isn’t enough, you need a graduate degree to get a foot in the door. This idea that education and therefore ability is the best way to choose a leader is taught in schools and at the entry level of jobs, however once you are inside these huge companies or running for a position in government it becomes very clear very quickly that it’s not just about ability, you need to have charisma too. The importance of charisma is especially important in government positions, look at Obama, he had a degree from not one but two ivy league schools and he still struggled to win against his less academically impressive competitors. To me that proves that while our society is a meritocracy in some ways, we recognize the fact that a leader has to be able to communicate well with their followers, to inspire and direct them in a way that smarts alone can’t do. Jefferson's ideas could definitely move us towards more of a meritocracy, and there is a real issue in our system right now with the lingering effects of aristocracy, however a full meritocracy isn’t something that I could support.
ReplyDeleteJefferson's idea of us living in a meritocratic society would be wonderful if it worked but I don't think it would be successful in society. Everyday I see people receive job positions or internships when they don't acquire the skills to fulfil that position. Most people now a days who receive high up positions have the their name, their wealth, or other resources behind them. People who truly have talent and skills get turned down for people who have a high socioeconomic or a well-know and respected last name. Hard work and talent don't match being extremely wealthy and being well known in the world. As nice and peaceful as it would be to live in a meritocratic society I don't think it's possible to change our ways. - Amanda Wallace
ReplyDeleteA meritocracy is an amazing idea in theory, and society has taken great strides towards becoming one, but there are still a lot of issues.
ReplyDeleteIn some ways, our society has some aspects of a plutocracy (that is, a society where the wealthy are the leaders). Money can buy people almost anything, either objects, services, or social positions and jobs. There are countless instances of children being bribed into their schools of choice, for example. Even in instances where money isn’t explicitly stated as the reason why a person has access to certain opportunities, there are hidden ways that finances have factored into the situation. For example, a wealthier person doesn’t really have to worry as much about where their next meal is coming from. If an individual has to choose between eating and studying, they’re going to choose to fulfill their basic needs. In ways such as this, the advantages of wealth add up rapidly.
Despite all of this, Jefferson’s ideals were not futile. Had his ideas been accepted during his time, society may have progressed much farther than it has today. His ideals would have allowed some people of different minorities to educate themselves and have more of a voice (though, he would have excluded any slaves from the opportunities that free men and women were granted).
Essentially, his ideas would have been progressive for the time, but would be nowhere near what we would need in order to have a true meritocracy, where people receive power based on their abilities and qualifications, rather than things that they had no control over.
A big issue with the meritocracy dream, in Jefferson’s time and in ours, is simply the way society is set up. Society is full of little things that reinforce the current status quo. Stereotypes are a major factor, and so are implicit biases. The ways that people think would make a quick transition to a meritocracy difficult. It would take many, many generations for a society that would be prepared for a true meritocracy to come about, assuming it would ever be possible.
- Zoha
(MS) I don’t think we live meritocracy society because in today’s time I believe it is very hard to land a job with no connection. There are a lot of people with a degree who have all the qualifications but they wont get the job because they don’t have any connection with people in the field that they want to work. There are a lot of graduates that don’t have a job in the field that they have studied and their working somewhere that don’t even relate to what they wanted to do in their life. There are people who have never went to school and are in a way better job position than someone who studied are their life. I don’t believe that if you go to school you will end up having your dream job.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with most of the comments above, I do not believe we live in meritocratic society. If we did, I feel like majority of the society would enjoy working in their career and some job positions would be in high demand and some with no depend. The reasoning being because there is no telling the proportion of talent/virtue of people to all the jobs that need to be fulfilled. If true meritocracy did exist now or then in Jefferson's time, some job wouldn't exist. For instant, fast food positions, shoe cleaning positions, janitors/maids positions are employed by people trying to make a living for themselves and/or their families. It's not like those individuals grew up saying "it's my dream to serve to go meals out of a window for the rest of my years" or saying "I would love to clean up behind people for the rest of my life." As far as Jefferson pushing towards meritocracy, I feel like he merely did that. For someone to push towards that, everyone should have the chance to an equal start and equal chance to continue. As where, the exploitation of men and women based on race, ethnicity, and gender played a major factor in who could further their education. If not everyone had the free chance to explore their talents and virtues then how could we live in a meritocracy society?
ReplyDeleteMadison Bray:
ReplyDeleteWe do not live in a meritocracy. Personally I think that a meritocracy would be beneficial for us as a society however it is not something that is a viable option our society because of the history that contributive to the foundation of our country. There is “to much bad blood” in our history at this time to really be able to get to a system in place such as a meritocracy. With a meritocracy in place there would not be the system in place that its about the connections that you have and who you know in a company or job system that you want to pursue and it would be based on your qualifications for the job. Nothing would be based on gender, race, socio-economic situations, or any other reason for getting or not getting a job other then what someone brings to the table. Meritocracy is something that Jefferson was interested in creating because it would overall boost the economy, however there are things that were occurring during his time a president and also that are occurring now that prevent the way to being formed for meritocracy. The way that people are raised and the situations that they are put into throughout their lives creates stigmas and bias that people face every day. Also there are factors that effect us when looking for jobs and stimulus, such as our names, the way that we dress, the way that we speak, and so on and so forth. The ideas of meritocracy that Jefferson had have some merit however there are significant differences that affect those ideas. The idea of gaining more education is something that today can push someone to get the job of their dreams because today the need for more education is more prevalent however there is a change that needs to be made in our system for education. Some things that effect us are education and the fact that it is so different from Jefferson’s time. The idea that the way that we learn is by sitting in front of a teacher while they lecture and may give some examples and the rest is up to us to retain and learn from that isn’t the way that the majority of people learn today. That method of learning isn’t suited for the majority of people and education has to be more individualized to the student so that they can better grow as a person. Also this could help people that don’t make it to a higher education can have the opportunity to get further in their education as well as succeeding in gaining a higher education.
We do not live in a meritocracy. Many people are elected into positions of power especially within the government based on the amount of education and resources they've received. People may land a position of power based on the fact that they know someone within the job force which could give them an advantage. There are often times politics and inequalities involved with gaining status or leadership. The issues with meritocracy during Jefferson's time would be racial inequalities, sexism, and class inequalities. Women were barely allowed to have an education, disadvantaged populations were not considered for leadership positions nearly as frequently or seriously as whites, and the poor were often discriminated against. Although society has become more inclusive we still face these issues in regards to meritocracy. I think Jefferson's ideas didn't have much of a potential to push us towards meritocracy because society is constructed in a way that creates hierarchy and disparities.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that we live in a meritocracy. There are for sure people in charge of companies, organizations, and even the government who are not necessarily capable or experienced enough in that area. In all honesty, I don't even believe that a meritocracy could work in our day and age. In the era that we live in, money makes the rules and wins positions. The idea of meritocracy would've worked more in Jefferson's era, a time before the idea of old money being at the top and middle and lower class not necessarily having the opportunities to being in head positions. But even then, there still were disadvantages such as gender and race. While we have come far from that in some aspects, the idea of a meritocracy would never even be considered.
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